Challenging DFO Ticket- anyone done it?

[Keith Brown]

My point is that the DFO likely has sufficient evidence to demonstrate the burden of proof, namely that the hook was not crimped as per the regulation. I'm guessing that the judicial system probably won't hear that he "attempted" to crimp it. Usually, it's either crimped or not. If precedence suggested that "attempts" were dismissed, they likely wouldn't write the tickets and go through the effort.

You suggest that every DFO officer has perfect judgment and is infallible everyday all day. Crap even brain surgeons have bad days. If you don't believe that read the book "Do No Harm". I have wondered what the term crimped barb meant for years as most of my fishing and acquaintances have their own definition of what it is, examples like scratch fingernail, pull thread on clothing etcetera. That's why I put that exact question to three DFO officers at last years Vancouver boat show. The exact answer that all three officers agree on was that a reasonable attempt had been made to crimp the barb. The answer came quickly and concisely without debate. From watching Pescador's posts on this forum I find him to be both reasonable and experienced. So I hope he does take the matter to court and reports back to the forum. Having said this I know that if I were issued the same ticket even when I knew that I had made a reasonable attempt to crimp the barb that I, like most fisherman would just pay the ticket because its just plain easier and cheaper to do than to go to court. I'm suggesting that many DFO officers know this and the fact that it was the new fisherman son in law who got the ticket may have led the officer to think it would never see the inside of a court room. I further suggest that if Pescador does take the matter to court that it may be thrown out before the trial when the Crown looks at the case.

 

[Rain City]

You suggest that every DFO officer has perfect judgment and is infallible everyday all day. Crap even brain surgeons have bad days. If you don't believe that read the book "Do No Harm". I have wondered what the term crimped barb meant for years as most of my fishing and acquaintances have their own definition of what it is, examples like scratch fingernail, pull thread on clothing etcetera. That's why I put that exact question to three DFO officers at last years Vancouver boat show. The exact answer that all three officers agree on was that a reasonable attempt had been made to crimp the barb. The answer came quickly and concisely without debate. From watching Pescador's posts on this forum I find him to be both reasonable and experienced. So I hope he does take the matter to court and reports back to the forum. Having said this I know that if I were issued the same ticket even when I knew that I had made a reasonable attempt to crimp the barb that I, like most fisherman would just pay the ticket because its just plain easier and cheaper to do than to go to court. I'm suggesting that many DFO officers know this and the fact that it was the new fisherman son in law who got the ticket may have led the officer to think it would never see the inside of a court room. I further suggest that if Pescador does take the matter to court that it may be thrown out before the trial when the Crown looks at the case.

To add to that, from my experience in speaking with crown counsel on my own case, they rely on the officer submitting evidence and then making it clear whether or not they intend to show up at all.

 

[scott craven]

Go to court, it's worth it.
I had a vehicular ticket stayed ($475)
The ticketing officer didn't show up and his stand in recommended charges were not in order.

 

[pescador]

Go to court, it's worth it.
I had a vehicular ticket stayed ($475)
The ticketing officer didn't show up and his stand in recommended charges were not in order.

I’m retired. I’ve got lots of time. I’m fighting this. Trust me.

 

[Fishing?]

Ya! Pray the judge fishes. This guy who presided over my friends trial was not a fisherman. No clue whatsover.

Just some bad humor here.

All judges must be fishers, they practice catch and release all the time.

 

[pescador]

So update; I attended a pre-trial hearing yesterday related to the barbed hook ticket. I don’t want to make this too long as there’s enough info attending a pre-trial hearing to make this response 10 pages long. I prepared myself for a week in advance with a pretty good presentation of the facts thinking I’d be able to at least give my side of the story.
DFO is not present during a pre trial hearing. The Crown Prosecutor represents them. They meet with you in advance. You are given 3 options; plead guilty, plead guilty requesting a reduction of the fine amount, plead not guilty and proceed to trial. Asking for a reduction in the fine amount requires you to disclose personal financial information to the judge in front of the entire court room and you need to prove a hardship situation. One person requested this and got a reduction for keeping 3 under size crabs….one of which was female. I think he cut the fine in half and gave her 3 months to pay.
The crown treats Fisheries violations seriously. It’s no joke. While I watched 3 police officers offer several traffic violation attendees “deals”, there is no such approach for DFO fines. In my case my son in law,who was the one to receive the fine, resides in Europe. The crown prosecutor said he would need to attend by Zoom teleconference. Basically I can’t represent him. I thought ok, it’ll be midnight his time but what the hell. Ten minutes later when my case was called before the judge, the judge said no to that approach. He wants my son in law present, or we hire a lawyer here to represent him. My sense was if I show up for trial to represent him……we’d almost certainly lose.
I guess when I got a “Titan File” and email from the Crown Counsel office with 50 pages of “Discovery” documents. It should have been clear that they have a pretty substantial budget to pursue and crush anybody who challenges them. It’s a well oiled machine.
At one point in the proceedings, the Judge asks Crown Counsel the facts of the case. Crown Counsel basically reads out the entire case to which I wasn’t allowed to respond. All that work on the facts of the case and I can’t use it. I’m thinking…..they’ve just convicted us. The judge proceeds to admonish me on the dangers of using barbed hooks. I get no chance to tell him, “I PINCHED THE ******* BARBS” and…….I understand the importance of compliance to the regulation.
So, in the end I asked for a trial. The judge and Crown decided it will be a full half day trial. Date to be determined. Crown Counsel will have the DFO attend the trial and my son in law needs to attend or hire a lawyer. I’ve got to discuss this with my son in law. The idea of spending $5K on a $575 ticket starts losing its appeal. I’m a man of principles but given the geographical challenges we face and what I saw in action yesterday tells me fishermen are cannon fodder to the system. One of the North Van RCMP members there managing the traffic fines told me that the DFO fines are pricey. His words……coming from a cop what’s that tell you.
Anyway, I learned a lot and will be better prepared if I ever have to represent myself.

 

[scott craven]

Once lawyers get involved, principles go out the window.
Good on you for trying!

 

[terrin]

So update; I attended a pre-trial hearing yesterday related to the barbed hook ticket. I don’t want to make this too long as there’s enough info attending a pre-trial hearing to make this response 10 pages long. I prepared myself for a week in advance with a pretty good presentation of the facts thinking I’d be able to at least give my side of the story.
DFO is not present during a pre trial hearing. The Crown Prosecutor represents them. They meet with you in advance. You are given 3 options; plead guilty, plead guilty requesting a reduction of the fine amount, plead not guilty and proceed to trial. Asking for a reduction in the fine amount requires you to disclose personal financial information to the judge in front of the entire court room and you need to prove a hardship situation. One person requested this and got a reduction for keeping 3 under size crabs….one of which was female. I think he cut the fine in half and gave her 3 months to pay.
The crown treats Fisheries violations seriously. It’s no joke. While I watched 3 police officers offer several traffic violation attendees “deals”, there is no such approach for DFO fines. In my case my son in law,who was the one to receive the fine, resides in Europe. The crown prosecutor said he would need to attend by Zoom teleconference. Basically I can’t represent him. I thought ok, it’ll be midnight his time but what the hell. Ten minutes later when my case was called before the judge, the judge said no to that approach. He wants my son in law present, or we hire a lawyer here to represent him. My sense was if I show up for trial to represent him……we’d almost certainly lose.
I guess when I got a “Titan File” and email from the Crown Counsel office with 50 pages of “Discovery” documents. It should have been clear that they have a pretty substantial budget to pursue and crush anybody who challenges them. It’s a well oiled machine.
At one point in the proceedings, the Judge asks Crown Counsel the facts of the case. Crown Counsel basically reads out the entire case to which I wasn’t allowed to respond. All that work on the facts of the case and I can’t use it. I’m thinking…..they’ve just convicted us. The judge proceeds to admonish me on the dangers of using barbed hooks. I get no chance to tell him, “I PINCHED THE ******* BARBS” and…….I understand the importance of compliance to the regulation.
So, in the end I asked for a trial. The judge and Crown decided it will be a full half day trial. Date to be determined. Crown Counsel will have the DFO attend the trial and my son in law needs to attend or hire a lawyer. I’ve got to discuss this with my son in law. The idea of spending $5K on a $575 ticket starts losing its appeal. I’m a man of principles but given the geographical challenges we face and what I saw in action yesterday tells me fishermen are cannon fodder to the system. One of the North Van RCMP members there managing the traffic fines told me that the DFO fines are pricey. His words……coming from a cop what’s that tell you.
Anyway, I learned a lot and will be better prepared if I ever have to represent myself.

Sounds a lot like Vancouver City Hall Court.

 

[pescador]

Sounds a lot like Vancouver City Hall Court.

North Van Provincial Court. By the way, the Crown Counsel was really good to deal with. Really informative and totally non-confrontational. She was just doing her job and being nice about it.

 

[onefish]

I don't think there is anything that I dislike more than DFO. Hard to watch what the "tugboat guy" just did for a slap on the wrist, vs a hard working taxpayer getting hammered for $575 for a small bump on your hook. All this happening while DFO is trying to restrict access to the resource to one group while increasing it to another. DFO has pretty much ruined saltwater fishing for me and I am sure there are many others who feel the same way. Good luck in your no win situation.

 

[seachicken]

I fought a couple traffic tickets, if I learned anything it's go and sit in court and watch and listen.

 

[Gong Show]

I fought a couple traffic tickets, if I learned anything it's go and sit in court and watch and listen.

Yes, every judge is different and you need to speak to your audience, which is the judge.
By listening to other cases before you, you learn what your audience likes and does not like, speak accordingly.

 

[Bill 310]

You know this whole process seems out of kilter. There is so much Officer discretion on barb pinching

Have you thought about having a friend doing a FOI request on all the barbed hook fines levied by year for say the last 5 years. broken down by zone.

Then get the number of barbed hooked fines by officer

Does the DFO ever issue written warnings for pinched barbed hooks -what percentage of pinched barbs are given a warning

Also get all the staff training manuals /videos on barbed and pinced barb hooks - There must be training and it might cover officer discretion.

Staff memos and emails on Pinched Barb enforcement

Is the policy that everyone gets fined, or do pretty girls and extra handsome men get a warning ?

Is there a clear standard of scientific testing or procedures for deeming a pinched barb is acceptable or not?

I just can't understand how such steep fines can be levied on improperly pinched barbs - unless they have a well documented metric

Final questions.

Do they seize the pinched barbed hook as evidence?

Does the Officer bring your particular pinched barbed hook into Court?

How do you know the hook presented is your hook?

Not being a lawyer I am prone to ask stupid questions.

I understand a speeding ticket Radar or Lidar is proof.

Parking ticket the same. but barb pinching assessment by the Officer seems to provide a lot of officer discretion

 

[Captain PartyMarty]

You know this whole process seems out of kilter. There is so much Officer discretion on barb pinching

Have you thought about having a friend doing a FOI request on all the barbed hook fines levied by year for say the last 5 years. broken down by zone.

Then get the number of barbed hooked fines by officer

Does the DFO ever issue written warnings for pinched barbed hooks -what percentage of pinched barbs are given a warning

Also get all the staff training manuals /videos on barbed and pinced barb hooks - There must be training and it might cover officer discretion.

Staff memos and emails on Pinched Barb enforcement

Is the policy that everyone gets fined, or do pretty girls and extra handsome men get a warning ?

Is there a clear standard of scientific testing or procedures for deeming a pinched barb is acceptable or not?

I just can't understand how such steep fines can be levied on improperly pinched barbs - unless they have a well documented metric

Final questions.

Do they seize the pinched barbed hook as evidence?

Does the Officer bring your particular pinched barbed hook into Court?

How do you know the hook presented is your hook?

Not being a lawyer I am prone to ask stupid questions.

I understand a speeding ticket Radar or Lidar is proof.

Parking ticket the same. but barb pinching assessment by the Officer seems to provide a lot of officer discretion

No the officer does not take your hook he uses it to show you how to cimp a hook.

 

[ryanonthevedder]

Bring a similar hook and pliers to court with you and have the officer demonstrate how to pinch it properly and test his work. He should be able to do it first try. Then have the infringing hook on hand for cross analysis.

Its a win lose strategy but if you're confident it could make for a quick adjournment.

 

[Gong Show]

Bring a similar hook and pliers to court with you and have the officer demonstrate how to pinch it properly and test his work. He should be able to do it first try. Then have the infringing hook on hand for cross analysis.

Its a win lose strategy but if you're confident it could make for a quick adjournment.

You want a stay of proceedings at a minimum, no adjournment, that is just a pause button.

 

[pescador]

You know this whole process seems out of kilter. There is so much Officer discretion on barb pinching

Have you thought about having a friend doing a FOI request on all the barbed hook fines levied by year for say the last 5 years. broken down by zone.

Then get the number of barbed hooked fines by officer

Does the DFO ever issue written warnings for pinched barbed hooks -what percentage of pinched barbs are given a warning

Also get all the staff training manuals /videos on barbed and pinced barb hooks - There must be training and it might cover officer discretion.

Staff memos and emails on Pinched Barb enforcement

Is the policy that everyone gets fined, or do pretty girls and extra handsome men get a warning ?

Is there a clear standard of scientific testing or procedures for deeming a pinched barb is acceptable or not?

I just can't understand how such steep fines can be levied on improperly pinched barbs - unless they have a well documented metric

Final questions.

Do they seize the pinched barbed hook as evidence?

Does the Officer bring your particular pinched barbed hook into Court?

How do you know the hook presented is your hook?

Not being a lawyer I am prone to ask stupid questions.

I understand a speeding ticket Radar or Lidar is proof.

Parking ticket the same. but barb pinching assessment by the Officer seems to provide a lot of officer discretion

Hey, all great suggestions, but, I’m played out after dealing with this for the last 6 months. I’ve got no more gas and I’m not throwing thousand’s of $ in a professional defence given my pre-trial experience. I paid it today and the Judicial Case Manager, who had already set a date of June 16th for a trial, has written me back advising the matter is now concluded (I sent in confirmation of payment). The machine beat me. It’s not a pleasant feeling particularly when you know you have a very good defence. I’m a man of principals….flexibility is one of my principals.

 

[Gong Show]

Hey, all great suggestions, but, I’m played out after dealing with this for the last 6 months. I’ve got no more gas and I’m not throwing thousand’s of $ in a professional defence given my pre-trial experience. I paid it today and the Judicial Case Manager, who had already set a date of June 16th for a trial, has written me back advising the matter is now concluded (I sent in confirmation of payment). The machine beat me. It’s not a pleasant feeling particularly when you know you have a very good defence. I’m a man of principals….flexibility is one of my principals.

It is sad when your belief in the system is extinguished.
I see it far too often. Even the most perfect case has a 50:50 shot in court.
Time to put this unpleasant experience behind you and make some good memories fishing.
Tight lines amigo!