OSM, it's not that you would see on each farmed salmon 500 sea lice or so. They may host 5-10 each. But it's the unnatural density of those lice in one single location with a perfect hosting ground over the winter period in those farms (when mature salmon do no naturally exist - since they die after spawning). That's what allows this exorbitant localized explosion of sea lice population in the spring when they reproduce that unfortunately coincides with the juvenile pinks showing up in the estuaries -where the farms are located. Not so hard to understand that this MUST have a negative impact. And the regulations that tolerate up to 3 sea lice per fish is ridiculous - an adult fish may laugh about 3 sea lice but a little 2" juvenile covered by 3 blood sucking 1/4" sea lice? Come on! Would like to see you having 3 footlong blood sucking monsters on your body and still say that's fine. Geee...I don't get how people can be so oblivious and say: "I don't know. Maybe wait and see...."?
ATTENTION: JOIN THE WAR ON FISHFARMING!
- Thread starter Little Hawk
- Start date
OSM said: "But i think we better look in to how warm our waters are 5 to 6 degrees warmer then normal ocean servival over fishing by the commercial fleet..."
OSM, The latest piece of science on Broughton Pinks (i.e. Krkosek et al. 2007. Declining wild salmon populations in relation to parasites from farm salmon. Science. 318, 1772-1775) shows quite eloquently that once you account for the effect of conditions in the Ocean and Commercial fishing, pink salmon stocks in the Broughton are crashing. Your comments is a classic one from industry, but it holds no water anymore.
I encourage you to read up a little more...
OSM, The latest piece of science on Broughton Pinks (i.e. Krkosek et al. 2007. Declining wild salmon populations in relation to parasites from farm salmon. Science. 318, 1772-1775) shows quite eloquently that once you account for the effect of conditions in the Ocean and Commercial fishing, pink salmon stocks in the Broughton are crashing. Your comments is a classic one from industry, but it holds no water anymore.
I encourage you to read up a little more...
Red Monster
Well-Known Member
Plus the young salmon that are now introduced to sea lice (thanks to fish farms) have yet to develope scales for protection! This is not a natural situation. Where there are no fish farms, young salmon do not encouter sea lice, and they are found not to have any sea lice. It's a man-made problem, a fish farm problem, and it needs to be solved quickly. Remove the fish farms.
If you care about wild salmon, it's just not logical to support fish farms in the ocean. If you support fish farming in the ocean, greed and/or simple ignorance is the reason. You can't have your cake and eat it too. How can you claim to care about protecting wild salmon and then ignore (or excuse) the harm that fish farms inflict on wild salmon? You can't have your wild salmon and farmed salmon too. Make your choice. But remember: Doing nothing means you're choosing to allow the farm farms to wipe out future runs of wild salmon.
If you care about wild salmon, it's just not logical to support fish farms in the ocean. If you support fish farming in the ocean, greed and/or simple ignorance is the reason. You can't have your cake and eat it too. How can you claim to care about protecting wild salmon and then ignore (or excuse) the harm that fish farms inflict on wild salmon? You can't have your wild salmon and farmed salmon too. Make your choice. But remember: Doing nothing means you're choosing to allow the farm farms to wipe out future runs of wild salmon.
Wow, way to protest, attack a guy because his spelling is a bit off, Fish Farming is going no where. I guess in a sense it gives you guys a job and all other environmentalist, I laugh when I thnk you guys are in a following of a women(alexandra Morton) who states "If you bake your a baker, If you do science your a scientest" This is a site about fishing, why dont we/you leave it at that.
Soooooooooooooooooooo Do you like bass?????
Soooooooooooooooooooo Do you like bass?????
G
gimp
Guest
The first fish farm I saw was when I was about 13 years old in Double Bay. The people that ran Double Bay at that time privately owned it. They raised the Chinook not Atlantic salmon to release so they could build the sports fishing around there. Right then and there, I wanted to be a fish farmer when I grew up. I started off my collage career at Sheldon Jackson Collage and my major was going to be Aquaculture. Funny we all grow up and end up doing something else. I for one would love to see fish farms supplying the world with fish so that the "commercial fleet" would not over fish our wild salmon. Is the water heating up and are the polar caps melting? Is that a cycle that has happened hundreds of times in the earths history? Most likely YES. Can we the human race stop it? Not so sure. I think the only ice age we were around for as a race was the last one and we think an asteroid caused it. Have we destroyed spawning habitat from logging & the Damming of major rivers? YES. Has the government opened up fishing in areas that should not have been opened up? YES. Has return predictions been wrong in the past so different fisheries were open when they shouldn’t be. YES. Who loves Gill-netters? Are the fish farms trying to follow the rules the Government set for them? Most likely YES.
THE BOTTOM LINE IS MISMANAGEMENT.
I realized this in the last report by the government about how the farms have been trying to comply with the government limit of 3 lice per fish before slice is used. In the report they stated in area 3.3 they tested 4 farms in the second quarter (spring to summer) showing the farms to have .0661 female lice per fish. But when we are talking about the pure numbers of salmon in a pen (I.E. 500,000) .0661 lice per fish is still way too many. 500,000(fish per pen) X .0661(female lice per fish) = 33,050(total female lice) X 100 to 500 (eggs per egg sack) = 3,305,000 to 16,525,000 X 6(sea lice have 6 egg sacks) = 19,830,000 to 99,150,000 (sea lice production per net pen)
That’s just one net pen there are reports that most farms have 3 net pens per site
3 X 9,915,000 = 59,490,000 to 3 X 99,150,000 = 297,450,000 lice per site production
27 sites in area 3.3 per their report = 27 X 59,490,000 = 1,606,230,000 to 8,031,150,000 Sea lice hatching in area 3.3.
Here is the report in pdf format please see pages 49- 51 & 106 if you don’t want to read the whole thing, But it’s a good read.
http://www.al.gov.bc.ca/fisheries/aqua_report/2006/fish_health2006.pdf
typical practice for fish farms
The eggs are hatched in the fall and then held in freshwater hatcheries and freshwater lake sites for 12 to 18 months. Then they are then transferred to marine sites from November through May. In saltwater, the salmon will continue to grow for another 18 to 24 months until they are ready for harvest and processing.
Tells me farmed salmon are good size when they are placed in with the sea lice and just about the right size to eat the pink salmon smolt. I wonder if they have scales yet?
e gads
Heres and Idea if you dont want to move on land why not decommision some large container ships and put the fish farms in a few of them. Bottom line there has to be a way to do it and not hurt our wild salmon. Create seperation
THE BOTTOM LINE IS MISMANAGEMENT.
I realized this in the last report by the government about how the farms have been trying to comply with the government limit of 3 lice per fish before slice is used. In the report they stated in area 3.3 they tested 4 farms in the second quarter (spring to summer) showing the farms to have .0661 female lice per fish. But when we are talking about the pure numbers of salmon in a pen (I.E. 500,000) .0661 lice per fish is still way too many. 500,000(fish per pen) X .0661(female lice per fish) = 33,050(total female lice) X 100 to 500 (eggs per egg sack) = 3,305,000 to 16,525,000 X 6(sea lice have 6 egg sacks) = 19,830,000 to 99,150,000 (sea lice production per net pen)
That’s just one net pen there are reports that most farms have 3 net pens per site
3 X 9,915,000 = 59,490,000 to 3 X 99,150,000 = 297,450,000 lice per site production
27 sites in area 3.3 per their report = 27 X 59,490,000 = 1,606,230,000 to 8,031,150,000 Sea lice hatching in area 3.3.
Here is the report in pdf format please see pages 49- 51 & 106 if you don’t want to read the whole thing, But it’s a good read.
http://www.al.gov.bc.ca/fisheries/aqua_report/2006/fish_health2006.pdf
typical practice for fish farms
The eggs are hatched in the fall and then held in freshwater hatcheries and freshwater lake sites for 12 to 18 months. Then they are then transferred to marine sites from November through May. In saltwater, the salmon will continue to grow for another 18 to 24 months until they are ready for harvest and processing.
Tells me farmed salmon are good size when they are placed in with the sea lice and just about the right size to eat the pink salmon smolt. I wonder if they have scales yet?
e gads
Heres and Idea if you dont want to move on land why not decommision some large container ships and put the fish farms in a few of them. Bottom line there has to be a way to do it and not hurt our wild salmon. Create seperation
O
old steely man
Guest
Well Sven i guess when sombody disagrees with what others say its their right to attack but to attack them personally i don't get it
So i probably won't come back here!
So i probably won't come back here!
Little Hawk
Active Member
Howdy, and welcome back Sven!
Thought maybe you'd finally given-up your pitiful defence of the disgusting industry you are involved in. In this arena, consider yourself - unarmed.
But... if you want some heat - and an extended opportunity to work on your English - hang around here for a while, there's dozens' of people like me who'll dance with you at every opportunity.
Because the plain truth of it is, Sven, we all fish and yes it's true, we are called Sportfishermen, and it's also true we - are the one's about to sink the filthy business the like's of you have inflicted on our Coast and our Wild Salmon.
Do you like unemployment?
The 'Alliance' stands at: 60
Cheers,
Terry Anderson
Thought maybe you'd finally given-up your pitiful defence of the disgusting industry you are involved in. In this arena, consider yourself - unarmed.
But... if you want some heat - and an extended opportunity to work on your English - hang around here for a while, there's dozens' of people like me who'll dance with you at every opportunity.
Because the plain truth of it is, Sven, we all fish and yes it's true, we are called Sportfishermen, and it's also true we - are the one's about to sink the filthy business the like's of you have inflicted on our Coast and our Wild Salmon.
Do you like unemployment?
The 'Alliance' stands at: 60
Cheers,
Terry Anderson
Little Hawk
Active Member
Howdy,
The 'Alliance' stands at: 61
Cheers,
Terry
The 'Alliance' stands at: 61
Cheers,
Terry
In the science of demographics and those who actively join or lobby the given ration is 12 or 15 to 1 , that is for every 1 who responds 12 to 15 agree but do not respond,
Accepting that ratio then over 600 agree that there is an issue with fish farms.
Given that syllogistic argument and removing that particular issue from the picture one can only concentrate on the remaining causative effects for the decline of the wild salmon stocks and begin to work on those.
The alternative is to do nothing and watch a species which gives us all pleasure and sustenance(some more than others) disappear without a fight , to allow that to happen is immoral and most eminently self serving for those who while engaged in the fish farming industry run around and maintain they have no impact on any other water borne specie .......Oh please get real !
I have grown up and fished on these waters for over 50 years and to attempt to convince me that fish farms do not have an impact in conjunction with other causative effects approaches the sublime if not the ridiculous , I personally have seen and experienced the decline as opposed to many who have not.
Now is the time to make the moves to start the program of eliminating one by one the direct impacting situations , if not then our children will only see what a salmon looks like through National Geographics videos and you are the ones to stand with blame written all over you .
AL
Accepting that ratio then over 600 agree that there is an issue with fish farms.
Given that syllogistic argument and removing that particular issue from the picture one can only concentrate on the remaining causative effects for the decline of the wild salmon stocks and begin to work on those.
The alternative is to do nothing and watch a species which gives us all pleasure and sustenance(some more than others) disappear without a fight , to allow that to happen is immoral and most eminently self serving for those who while engaged in the fish farming industry run around and maintain they have no impact on any other water borne specie .......Oh please get real !
I have grown up and fished on these waters for over 50 years and to attempt to convince me that fish farms do not have an impact in conjunction with other causative effects approaches the sublime if not the ridiculous , I personally have seen and experienced the decline as opposed to many who have not.
Now is the time to make the moves to start the program of eliminating one by one the direct impacting situations , if not then our children will only see what a salmon looks like through National Geographics videos and you are the ones to stand with blame written all over you .
AL
G
gimp
Guest
OSM I hope you are not taking what I posted as an attack towards you. I do want you to understand that I am passionate when it comes to wild salmon. In an area that I love. I am a sportfisherman and have been for all my life (thanks dad). I truily hope that you stick around. So some people made fun of your spelling in your first post so what. That happens to me daily at work. We all need to work together to figure out whats broken and fix it. Do we all agreee that we want salmon fishing for our grandchildren. We all understand that there is passion on both sides of this issue. So if Im on the wrong side and someday its proven that the farms are not making the sealice problem worse. I WILL PUT UP MY FISHING ROD FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE.
Alley Cat; you speak out of my heart. Nobody is so dumb as not to see the impact. My cat understands it - I didn't even need to tell her... It's an intentional suppression of reality to justify personal wrong-doing and to avoid guilty feelings... Well, Human Resources and Skills Development Canada offers excellent psychological rehab programs that can maybe enlighten some of those lost souls - those soon-to-be unemployed fish farmers who didn't even want to see and take the only compromise solution - GO TO LAND BASED FACILITIES. Good luck to those few smart deniers...
G
gimp
Guest
I just realized something when you go out and then back in to a fourm and hit refresh after you go back out it counts it as a view. So the 10 or so times I look at this a day might have something to do with that. Not sure but gonna see if I can get clarification on that. Anyone know?
Hey gimp.......sorry 130 +/- , chris 73 You talk to a cat, maybe the psychological program works for you.
Alley Cat, I am not saying there is no impact, driving down the road has an impact on the environment, and there is always room for improvement, and if there wasnt opposition then how could we improve????
But false accusations are unnecessary,and this is a fishing fourm, ask me something about fishing I will probly have a better answer then YOU!!!!!!
Alley Cat, I am not saying there is no impact, driving down the road has an impact on the environment, and there is always room for improvement, and if there wasnt opposition then how could we improve????
But false accusations are unnecessary,and this is a fishing fourm, ask me something about fishing I will probly have a better answer then YOU!!!!!!
Well Sven, if it was for people with your attitude towards wild salmon then all the fishing questions you will soon be able to ask and answer are: "Do the bass in our stocked lake bite on worm or gear today?" or "Hey, can somebody tell me how I can shrink my once so useful salmon rod to a 12" trout suitable format?". Mind you, some of the really business-smart fish farmers may scent an additional source of income and let you fish in their net-pens - for $20 a cast.... What a blast! Well, I tell you, most of us have a different idea of how the future should look like...and one day even you will wake up and realize we were right and then I will let you catch up with my cat...
Little Hawk
Active Member
Howdy,
Well done Chris... busted my Gut!
The 'Alliance' stands at: 66
Cheers,
Terry
Well done Chris... busted my Gut!
The 'Alliance' stands at: 66
Cheers,
Terry
Little Hawk
Active Member
Bump-de-bump!
Little Hawk
Active Member
Howdy,
Finally heard back from Sheila Fraser. Didn't think I would.
Hopefully I'll have more good news to share with you all real soon.
Things are coming together... I can feel it.
The 'Alliance' stands at: 69
'Wild Salmon' will win!
Cheers,
Terry
BC Sportfisherman's Alliance
<center>***</center>
Dear Mr. Anderson,
Thank you for your email of 2 January 2008, regarding the audit of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.
I have forwarded a copy of your letter to the audit team responsible for Fisheries and Oceans Canada for their information. Please note, however, that we are not committing to audit the issues you have raised. Even if we can look into these issues, we do not have the power to force DFO to change their practices. We could only recommend some changes to them.
I should also clarify that we audit the federal government on behalf of Parliament. Therefore, we present our audit plans and reports directly to Parliament, and our reports become public only after they have been tabled in the House of Commons.
Thank you for taking the time to write to me.
Sincerely,
Sheila Fraser, FCA
Auditor General | Vérificatrice générale
Office of the Auditor General of Canada | Bureau du vérificateur général du Canada
C.D. Howe Building, 240 Sparks Street, West Tower | Édifice C.D.
Howe, 240, rue Sparks, tour ouest
Ottawa, Canada K1A 0G6
sheila.fraser@oag-bvg.gc.ca
Telephone | Téléphone 613-992-2512
Facsimile | Télécopieur 613-957-4023
Teletypewriter | Téléimprimeur 613-954-8042
Finally heard back from Sheila Fraser. Didn't think I would.
Hopefully I'll have more good news to share with you all real soon.
Things are coming together... I can feel it.
The 'Alliance' stands at: 69
'Wild Salmon' will win!
Cheers,
Terry
BC Sportfisherman's Alliance
<center>***</center>
Dear Mr. Anderson,
Thank you for your email of 2 January 2008, regarding the audit of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.
I have forwarded a copy of your letter to the audit team responsible for Fisheries and Oceans Canada for their information. Please note, however, that we are not committing to audit the issues you have raised. Even if we can look into these issues, we do not have the power to force DFO to change their practices. We could only recommend some changes to them.
I should also clarify that we audit the federal government on behalf of Parliament. Therefore, we present our audit plans and reports directly to Parliament, and our reports become public only after they have been tabled in the House of Commons.
Thank you for taking the time to write to me.
Sincerely,
Sheila Fraser, FCA
Auditor General | Vérificatrice générale
Office of the Auditor General of Canada | Bureau du vérificateur général du Canada
C.D. Howe Building, 240 Sparks Street, West Tower | Édifice C.D.
Howe, 240, rue Sparks, tour ouest
Ottawa, Canada K1A 0G6
sheila.fraser@oag-bvg.gc.ca
Telephone | Téléphone 613-992-2512
Facsimile | Télécopieur 613-957-4023
Teletypewriter | Téléimprimeur 613-954-8042
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