25 year old fiberglass hull

[the force]

I’ve been back and forth with myself on this for a while, I’d love to hear some perspectives from those with more experience then I. Don’t want this to become an alum vs glass debate, eventually I want to alum but can’t stomach $150k (used) currently.

I had a 1976 glass campion for a while and am not adverse to fiberglass, and though I’m fairly risk tolerant I am always leary of rot. Boats that have caught my eye are mid 2000s and balsa cored, $50-80k… in my mind there has got to be a few screws or minor cracks where moisture has gotten through into the balsa. Can a marine surveyor actually/ effectively detect this? Or only if there is a large section that is all soft? I’ve heard mixed reviews.

I’ve read some horror stories (mostly C-Dory repairs). I’m in Kamloops so will be subject to freeze and thaw, would like to have it for 5-10 years. If I was confident that I wouldn’t need to sink $20k into fiberglass/core repairs I would likely go for it (I’m glad to do minor fiberglass work myself but don’t have 80hrs). When thinking about resale in 10 years (ie a 1990 hull today) I don’t get exicted…. I’m not as worried about the power, would repower if required, as long as the hull is competent.

I know this has likely been discussed multiple times, though I’m always impressed by the responses I get here from the crew.

 

[kaelc]

Lots of 140k aluminums have issues too, foam can become saturated below the cockpit and electrolysis and bad welding can require 10k in repairs for a 1990’s aluminum hull or a lot more for a big newer one that was welded up after the top fabricator left to make money in Alberta and there weren’t enough fully trained great guys to put it together perfectly.

My 2007 C-Dory doesn’t have any balsa in the transom, it was so heavily built Sherwood didn’t even have bolts long enough for my transom where the top of the splash well makes it thicker. Going back out there today to return a couple of $15 bolts.

I agree almost anything early 2000’s is likely to have through hull or some screw hole rot, or delamination issues for most brands. There is a channel boat restorations by Ben, where he uncovers so much on a 2000 pursuit it made me sick to my stomach to watch. Lots of Grady White from 2000 and earlier and even some years of Boston Whalers with foam saturation and many aluminum’s with foam saturation.

Most boat builders were improving their processes by mid 2000’s it seems but surveyors miss things and often concentrate on the wrong things. They are a good second set of eyes, as are 1-2 friends who have good mechanical and electrical knowledge and are skeptics, keen boat friends are likely the worst to take boat shopping with you! One member says buying your own moisture meters is a good idea, but you’ll have to figure out how and where to use it.

For an old boat I’d Budget to put 15-50% annually of what you pay for a boat back into it. Lots of friends have spent the same amount in repairs and motor replacement as they paid for the boat originally. I’m likely there or close to it now 8 years in. My brother was one of the few exceptions who bought a 2 stroke 19 footer from Wanachi WA when the $ was at par and managed to sell it after 3-4 years for more than he paid. I know a guy in vancouver who claims to make money on every boat he buys and sells but he probably says the same about his crypto investments.

My buddy just had his 400 hour service done on a 150hp and it was $2100. I’ve seen people selling similar 19 year old engines for parts after dropping 10k+ in repairs on it. Talked to an C-Dory 22 owner yesterday at the dock who just powered and I’m repowered at about 17k out of pocket after selling my old engines. Aluminum Gas tank replacement on old boats can run into the 30k range on boats where floors need to be cut out and moved. Members have done it for a lot less but that 80 hours thing… We looked at an old boat last week with new power and the owner shows us recent receipts for more than he was selling it for. I think it most old boats are worth what the trailer, and parts would go for used. So to answer your question 1990’s hull in 10 years is going to be worth close to what his 1970’s hull is worth now, close to 0$.

I think, the only way to make boat math work is buy a boat you can afford, to dump a pile of money in, sell for less than you bought and still have lots of disposable income to continue to invest in index funds etc. Don’t buy a bigger boat if you have high costs things like kids, or a big mortgage. I had one kid, bought a bigger house, then bought my bigger boat with a partner and then we had a second kid. Finally I bought my boat partner out. All bad financially but worth it. I figure I don’t drink or gamble, and I have good friends who help with maintenance, so I somehow make it all work. I might be able to sell it now and “make” money but I’d be discounting all my time finding deals and the time I spent fixing and figuring out myself. I could have spent more time on my business and it would have made me a much richer, but much more dull guy. My kids wouldn’t be asking me to go fishing yesterday and I wouldn’t have fresh Hali, Ling, Rock cod in my fridge. I have two need good friends who I fish with, and lots of good old friends. For men having good friends is a big factor in life expectancy so it’s one of the many ways I justify boat ownership.

 

[Flashman]

Wood in boats reminds me of a saying about concrete. Concrete gets hard and cracks. Wood in boats gets wet and rots. It's a losing battle. Some boats are better than other. I would assume that most, but not all wood cored boats that age will have at minimum wet spots. Many will have rot that has turned sections of the core to mush. A moisture meter of this style is a critical tool, along with a hammer.


The meter will allow you to tell dry from wet from totally rotten core. It's not a perfect tool, but will give you a general indication if there's no problem (dry), a long term problem (wet) or a total mess (rotten). In my experience they are accurate enough and allow detection of variations in water content over areas as small as a few inches apart. If there's delamination, the moisture meter may give a false lower moisture reading because it reads the air gap as low water content. That's where the hammer comes in to find delamination with a light tap and hearing the difference between a sharp sound (solid) or dull thud (delaminated). It's a very clear difference in severe cases. There are some good youtube videos by surveyors who go through the process. It's not complicated. The important thing is to know where to check (EVEYWHERE!) and use both methods on all areas tested. The cabin floor in a fully enclosed cabin may be rotten from a leaking window finding a seam somewhere and the water migrating multiple feet before pooling and causing a problem where you would never expect it. (personal experience with that one)

That being said, a boat with wet or even rotten core doesn't necessarily need to be fixed. Some times there's enough strength in the fiberglass alone to take all the forces applied. That's why low density foam works as core. The foam provides almost zero structural support, it just gives a form to build the glass over and to hold the layers of glass apart. Hollow fiberglass, with no core, when designed for it can be adequately strong. A wet transom might be strong enough for years and aside from getting squished by the motor mounting bolts, giving no other indication of an issue. A transom that's cracking in the corners could be warning of an impending catastrophic failure though, so caution is required. A rotten deck or hatch, unless it starts to crack or otherwise fall apart may never really need to be fixed unless the soft spot bothers the owner.

 

[the force]

Thanks you for the time taken to write up these excellent responses. I need to digest this a bit today before I can write an intelligent response.

Not the intent of this post but it is the continous debate around discretionary spend here - when and how much. Last thing I want is to be too tired and broken to enjoy the fruits of my labour, though I’m not working (hard atleast) until 70 and need to be fiscally responsible with 3 kids lol.

Some figuring ie 5 and 10 year book end cost of ownership, and what are my boundaries for this addiction will give a bit more confidence in decision.

We’ve had some truly priceless experiences to date on the water, no regrets about the cost of those and no intent to adjust the course.

Back to the risks of older glass hulls momentarily. If anyone has had experiences with insurance and applicability to water intrusion and damage I’d be keen to hear that as well (pm is fine if not something to air on a public forum).

Thanks!

 

[brutus]

Lots of 140k aluminums have issues too, foam can become saturated below the cockpit and electrolysis and bad welding can require 10k in repairs for a 1990’s aluminum hull or a lot more for a big newer one that was welded up after the top fabricator left to make money in Alberta and there weren’t enough fully trained great guys to put it together perfectly.

My 2007 C-Dory doesn’t have any balsa in the transom, it was so heavily built Sherwood didn’t even have bolts long enough for my transom where the top of the splash well makes it thicker. Going back out there today to return a couple of $15 bolts.

I agree almost anything early 2000’s is likely to have through hull or some screw hole rot, or delamination issues for most brands. There is a channel boat restorations by Ben, where he uncovers so much on a 2000 pursuit it made me sick to my stomach to watch. Lots of Grady White from 2000 and earlier and even some years of Boston Whalers with foam saturation and many aluminum’s with foam saturation.

Most boat builders were improving their processes by mid 2000’s it seems but surveyors miss things and often concentrate on the wrong things. They are a good second set of eyes, as are 1-2 friends who have good mechanical and electrical knowledge and are skeptics, keen boat friends are likely the worst to take boat shopping with you! One member says buying your own moisture meters is a good idea, but you’ll have to figure out how and where to use it.

For an old boat I’d Budget to put 15-50% annually of what you pay for a boat back into it. Lots of friends have spent the same amount in repairs and motor replacement as they paid for the boat originally. I’m likely there or close to it now 8 years in. My brother was one of the few exceptions who bought a 2 stroke 19 footer from Wanachi WA when the $ was at par and managed to sell it after 3-4 years for more than he paid. I know a guy in vancouver who claims to make money on every boat he buys and sells but he probably says the same about his crypto investments.

My buddy just had his 400 hour service done on a 150hp and it was $2100. I’ve seen people selling similar 19 year old engines for parts after dropping 10k+ in repairs on it. Talked to an C-Dory 22 owner yesterday at the dock who just powered and I’m repowered at about 17k out of pocket after selling my old engines. Aluminum Gas tank replacement on old boats can run into the 30k range on boats where floors need to be cut out and moved. Members have done it for a lot less but that 80 hours thing… We looked at an old boat last week with new power and the owner shows us recent receipts for more than he was selling it for. I think it most old boats are worth what the trailer, and parts would go for used. So to answer your question 1990’s hull in 10 years is going to be worth close to what his 1970’s hull is worth now, close to 0$.

I think, the only way to make boat math work is buy a boat you can afford, to dump a pile of money in, sell for less than you bought and still have lots of disposable income to continue to invest in index funds etc. Don’t buy a bigger boat if you have high costs things like kids, or a big mortgage. I had one kid, bought a bigger house, then bought my bigger boat with a partner and then we had a second kid. Finally I bought my boat partner out. All bad financially but worth it. I figure I don’t drink or gamble, and I have good friends who help with maintenance, so I somehow make it all work. I might be able to sell it now and “make” money but I’d be discounting all my time finding deals and the time I spent fixing and figuring out myself. I could have spent more time on my business and it would have made me a much richer, but much more dull guy. My kids wouldn’t be asking me to go fishing yesterday and I wouldn’t have fresh Hali, Ling, Rock cod in my fridge. I have two need good friends who I fish with, and lots of good old friends. For men having good friends is a big factor in life expectancy so it’s one of the many ways I justify boat ownership.

Moisture meter are deceiving,on a glass boat imo, the only way to be really sure of any rot is to drill the core, and most guys selling won’t let you with exception,( I drilled mine when I bough it)soft spots in transom and deck are fairly easy to detect with a hammer tapping around,myself I use my nose, been working with wood for 30+ years, I can smell Rot from 10 feet. IMO 90% of 20 year old boat have some rot, all depends where the rot is, tab ins and stuff not a big deal but structure rot is not good. I ve own over 10 glass boat most where 20 plus year old and all had rot here and there, the worse ones where my two bayliner ( trophy) one was only 10 years old the other was 17, my 2452 held up better but man oh man there was a new rattle every week lol

 

[Doubleheader]

I have a 1980 Hourston 20’ with a glass pod on it. Fully rebuilt in 2018. I fished it hard for a few years and it’ll take anything you throw at it. I’ll be robbing the engines for my new boat, I had a 225 Suzuki and taking a 250 Suzuki off it this week. It will have no motors but otherwise complete with many extras. PM me if you’re interested, I’m in Cherryville. It’s the best 20’ I’ve ever been in.
Cheers

 

[brutus]

I have a 1980 Hourston 20’ with a glass pod on it. Fully rebuilt in 2018. I fished it hard for a few years and it’ll take anything you throw at it. I’ll be robbing the engines for my new boat, I had a 225 Suzuki and taking a 250 Suzuki off it this week. It will have no motors but otherwise complete with many extras. PM me if you’re interested, I’m in Cherryville. It’s the best 20’ I’ve ever been in.
Cheers
View attachment 117161

Hard to beat a restored hourston