This should get some attention......

OK barbender now what????how can you defend this one???


Wolf
 
Let me address this like a fish farmer would:

"There is no proof until 27 years worth of data is collected and analyzed (BTW, I retire in 27 years). So until then, all pacific salmon found dead with suspicious infections are assumed to be killed by natural causes or lightning or anything else but us. And also, viruses have been on earth before fish farming started, so why should we be to blame for their existence? We should get compensated for the loss they cause to our industry! For the short term, we propose that you eat 5 rations of infected farmed fish per week and simultaneously take antibiotics and laxative pills. This will ensure your body is protected against any harm from this dangerous natural environment that we are consistently exposed to, and it will provide a balanced level of permanently required pharmaceuticals in your system that will rapidly enhance your chances of surviving a nuclear attack by non-fish farming countries."
 
I dont have to defend it. This "research" was done by a anti aquaculture organization. End of story. I have tons of research that shows the complete opposite (as does DFO etc). But of course because we did the research it is invalid because it is tainted and one sided. However the "Raincoast Society" did this one so it is true. By the way sea lice have lived on the west coast for millions of years. How they discovered a sea lice free zone is pure bunk.
 
No matter how you look at it, almost all studies will be bias. Scientists are hired to do research by a company that has an expected result...if the result is not what they want, do you think those scientists will be rehired? Hence why they try and bend it in the company's favor.

A 3rd party is the only way it will work, and even then there will be sure to be personal bias in most work done.
 
Howdy,

FYI... Chilean farmfish - produced in what is basically a totally unregulated industry - are dosed with what has been estimated at 70 to 300 times more antibiotics than are permitted in Norway's industry.

These fish are marketed in the US and Canada by both Safeway & Costco.

So if you are shopping for farmfish and want to figure out which ones are the freshest - simply take your Geiger Counter with you.

Cheers,
Terry
WSA
 
OMG
barbender did you not watch the video that was done with mrs. morton and a dfo bioligist and even he agreed it looked like a coralation with fish farms and lice right from his own mouth!!!!!!!!!!!

I know you defend them because of what you do but cmon man are you that one sided and blind to the fact it could be gone. enough studing get them out of the water and on land with filterd water and a way of disposing the waste then there will never be a problem!!!!!!

I know I know it will cost more money because then they need generators and to be watched 24/7 so be it pass the cost on to the consumer people will pay it!!!!!!!!! they want fish!!!!!!
the cost of it out weighs what the damage that is being created and the loss of wild fish.

MY RANT FOR THE DAY THANKS

WOLF
 
Barbender, you state:
quote:I dont have to defend it. This "research" was done by a anti aquaculture organization. End of story. I have tons of research that shows the complete opposite (as does DFO etc). But of course because we did the research it is invalid because it is tainted and one sided. However the "Raincoast Society" did this one so it is true. By the way sea lice have lived on the west coast for millions of years. How they discovered a sea lice free zone is pure bunk.
Click to expand...
Barbender, if you truly believe that you have "tons" of credible data that suggests that sea lice from fish farms is not having population-level impacts on adjacent wild salmon stocks - then publish it in a peer-reviewed journal so we can all see it - or quit whining about the peer-reviewed science that indicates that open net-pen technology is damaging to wild stocks. It's that simple.
 
I guess once it is to late and our Pacific waters are devoid of fish, maybe, just maybe our government will open their eyes and remove their heads from asses about fishfarmings impact. Any impact on wild salmon even slight habitat effects should be discontinued Period. This is including the destruction of Fraser River Reds for gravel farming.
If Arnold's declaration of emergency in California has not opened some eyes on how serious the chance of losing our fishery completley in the very near future from Alaska to California. Guess what were in the middle? Not to be negative but we are in serious trouble, the future of our fishery is bleak. Wolf and many others called it Six years ago, "We will be done fishing Salmon in ten years" I did some serious reading on my night shift last night and the reality of our future is Not cool[V]
 
quote:Originally posted by wolf

OMG
barbender did you not watch the video that was done with mrs. morton and a dfo bioligist and even he agreed it looked like a coralation with fish farms and lice right from his own mouth!!!!!!!!!!!

I know you defend them because of what you do but cmon man are you that one sided and blind to the fact it could be gone. enough studing get them out of the water and on land with filterd water and a way of disposing the waste then there will never be a problem!!!!!!

I know I know it will cost more money because then they need generators and to be watched 24/7 so be it pass the cost on to the consumer people will pay it!!!!!!!!! they want fish!!!!!!
the cost of it out weighs what the damage that is being created and the loss of wild fish.

MY RANT FOR THE DAY THANKS

WOLF
Click to expand...
I've been saying this for years...... It's the ONLY solution that'll get it all sorted out now. Forget wasting $$$ on studies, we're beyond that now.
 
quote:Originally posted by agentaqua

Barbender, you state:
quote:I dont have to defend it. This "research" was done by a anti aquaculture organization. End of story. I have tons of research that shows the complete opposite (as does DFO etc). But of course because we did the research it is invalid because it is tainted and one sided. However the "Raincoast Society" did this one so it is true. By the way sea lice have lived on the west coast for millions of years. How they discovered a sea lice free zone is pure bunk.
Click to expand...
Barbender, if you truly believe that you have "tons" of credible data that suggests that sea lice from fish farms is not having population-level impacts on adjacent wild salmon stocks - then publish it in a peer-reviewed journal so we can all see it - or quit whining about the peer-reviewed science that indicates that open net-pen technology is damaging to wild stocks. It's that simple.
Click to expand...

Agent aqua the peer reviewed science has been done and it has been published. It just doesnt have a sugar daddy to pay for press kits to market it to the masses. Not only that the peer reviewed scionce by Krkosek and Morton has been thoroughly criticized and debunked. What Krkosek and Morton say in the media does not mesh with what they say in their papers.

Morton used dipnets in her "seminal" study on Sea lice. She now states on her own website that this method was ridiculous- however she clings to the conclusions that she made based on her faulty results. Krkosek was dressed down by 20 experts and the Paciofic Salmon Forum for the ridiculous assumptions he plugged into his computer model "study" that was published in Science. His claims of extinction flew in the face of all evidence: excellent return rates of pink salmon in the Broughton and his own conclusion in his own (other)studies that 70% of smolts survive well after exposure to salmon farms.

Morton and Krkosek arent trying to save the wild salmon- they are marketting wild Alaska salmon- thats who pays their bills and makes themn celebrities.

You want peer reviewed studies paid for by the tax payer by responsible scientists who have been studying BC fisheries for decades under many administrations? I warn you, its kind of boring. Real science actually is because it answers only one small question at a time and doesnt claim top have all the answers.

google:

1. Sea Lice on adult Pacific Salmon...Beamish et all 2005
2. Exceptional marine survival of pink salmon that entered the marine envirtonment...Beamish 2006
3. Stickleback as a host of L. Salmonis...Simon Jones


Actually, there is too many to list, just go to pacificsalmonforum.ca and there is many many reports there. Some are by your heroes Krkosek and Morton, but to get the funding they actually have to behave like real scientists so you may not enjoy the reading too much. They dont publicze these reults because they dont contribute to the hysteria and they have to acknowledge that wild salmon runs in the area around fish farms are doing fine.

Then go to PacificSalmonForm.ca
 
quote:Originally posted by Striper Sniper

I believe this was in one of the Vancouver rags.....

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/sports/story.html?id=15f5e452-6d8f-4fed-ae54-a0b8917584f5

SS
Click to expand...

This story was done by anti salmon farmer Stephen Hume. He even co -wrote an anti salmon farming book. He is one reason why we get such a biased slant in the Sun. The Globe and Mail publishes stories that cast doubt on the Alaska funded litany against salmon farming but not the Sun.

Here's the thing that journalists and the laymen public dont get: infection does not equal disease. If you are infected you are not necesaarily sick. 99% of wild fish are infected with over 300 species of sea lice. Reporters and the public do not get this distinction. One more time for the gipper: infection does not equal disease.

Wild salmon, ungulates and birds infect farm salmon, farm ungulates and farm birds. NOT, the other way around. Why? Because farmers manage their stocks and there are regulations that require farmers to kill stock if certain bugs are detected- the only animals threatened here are farm animals. During avian flu crisis if a small percentage of the population is infected 100% of the population will be destroyed. Not to protect the wild, but to protect future generations of farm animals. The wild dont need protecting because they are ALREADY INFECTED, THEY ARE THE SOURCE OF THE INFECTION. 90% of the avian flu chickens killed were sold into the market and they were 100% healthy.

If you don't understand the difference between disease and infection you will be perpetually duped by reporters and activist that are trying to push your buttons with idiot stories like these.

The theory that farms "amplify disease" makes no sense. The worse place for a bug or a sea lice to live is on a farm. why? Because the animals or fish, unlike the wild, are not under stress and they are managed. By managed I mean if they get sick they are treated, if the treatment does not work they are killed. Even Krkosek says that SLICE is highly effective treatment of sea lice.

Mad cow, hoof and mouth, avian flu are all disease that threaten FARM animals. Sea Lice is a different story because they are not an issue for farmed fish or wild fish. Its very difficult to kill a salmon with sea lice. Morton claims (in media) that she can, but the truth is in her published work where she is forced to confess- in the footnotes. Studies done by the Pacific Salmon Forum show that only at 10x natural levels (or 30x farm levels) can you even measure an effect.

When you see a salmon smolt covered in sea lice you must ask yourself: is the fish infected? yes. Is it sick? You don't know. If you do tests and discover it is sick then the next question is what came first the sickness or the lice infection. Morton doesnt stae this relationship, she just holds up the picture and lets the layman public jump to their own conclusions. Even in her own study, she found that the biggest healthiest juveniles carried the most sea lice. Thus the infection did not indicate disease, but it indicated "time spent in saltwater". A slightly less dramatic conclusion than "they are all going to die!".

As long as you think that infection equals disease and correlation equals cause and effect you are a nice gullible member of the public who will be duped by a whole range of things. You may even get duped into thinking that we have to eat wild salmon in order to save them.
 
quote:Originally posted by wolf

OK barbender now what????how can you defend this one???


Wolf
Click to expand...

Of course he can- the article is bunk written by a layman reporter to a layman audience. See my reply to striper sniper.
 
Lets take this out just for fun JUST FOR BENDER and new to the group MR HANDEE

(And this week, word that research in Clayoquot Sound suggests an increased sea lice presence in proximity to salmon farms in a region that was previously considered a "zero lice" zone.

Michael Price, fish biologist for the Raincoast Conservation Foundation, insisted work was preliminary and samples small but confirmed that sea lice loads in plankton trawls near three fish farm sites were an average of 28 times those found at control sites.

This follows other research indicating elevated burdens of sea lice on immature wild salmon in the Broughton archipelago and in the Discovery Islands off Campbell River where fish farms are concentrated.)

Poof no longer in the article.

Now for the title
The hoof and mouth disease of the salmon farming industry</u>


Identified as an "emerging viral pathogen" by the United States department of agriculture's animal and plant health inspection service, ISA belongs to the orthomyxovirus family of viruses.

Like the "flu" virus, what's most alarming about ISA is what the U.S. government's veterinarian service says is its ability to mutate rapidly by recombining genetic elements within its hosts</u>.

For example, researchers have found significant molecular differences between strains of the virus in Norway, Scotland and New Brunswick. These outbreaks in the 1990s caused more than $50 million in estimated damage.

So consider ISA the hoof and mouth disease of the global salmon farming industry.

According to an information leaflet from the U.S. government's National Fish Health Research Laboratory, infected blood, feces, urine and mucus, animal wastes, contaminated slaughter facilities, transport vessels and workers all easily transmit it from fish to fish and from site to site.</u>
As with hoof and mouth, the standard treatment is to kill all infected or exposed stocks within designated containment zones, disinfect all equipment and facilities and then keep fingers crossed.

Thus far the disease has been limited to Atlantic salmon, but there are gloomy hints that it might be extending its reach. The U.S. government notes "other wild fish are also susceptible to infection" including both sea run and freshwater brown and rainbow trout, and herring, all of which are important B.C. species. It also says ISA has affected coho and Chinook salmon in some isolated cases.</u>
Furthermore, it says sea lice, already the source of debate in B.C., may also play a role as vectors that can enhance contagion during epidemics.

For those of you that dont know what VECTORS are

In epidemiology, a vector is an organism that does not cause disease itself but which transmits infection by conveying pathogens from one host to another.


Now this from the DFO

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/infocus/2005/20051011b/info_e.htm

Sea lice are small, salt-water copepods or crustaceans with soft bodies and are ordinarily enclosed within a hard, protective outer shell. Sea lice have a rounded body shaped like a cylinder and have many legs for swimming and collecting food. The term sea lice actually refer to several species of copepods that infect fish. Sea lice attach to the outside of fish, either on skin, fins, or gills where they live and feed on the mucous layer secreted by the fish’s skin.</u>

the point is

Transmission of the virus has been demonstrated to occur by contact with infected fish or their secretions</u>. Contact with equipment or people who have handled infected fish also transmits the virus. The virus can survive in seawater and, not surprisingly, a major risk factor for any uninfected farm is its proximity to an already infected farm.

More recently the sea louse, a small crustacean parasite that attacks the protective mucous, scales and skin of the salmon has been shown to carry the virus passively on its surface and in its digestive tract, although transmission of the disease by sea lice has not been demonstrated.
To cop a phrase from the late Steve Irwin "DANGER DANGER DANGER"
I have been looking for studies on this and I cant find any so saying that it has not been demonstrated just means hasnt been tested to me.
 
another excellent post by gimp

ISA is very troubling for everyone.

Here's some info from a past posting for you, Gimp:

the sea louse Lepeophtheirus salmonis could be a vector or secondary host to a variety of diseases and parasites that infect fish (Nylund et al. 1991), including IHNv (Johnson et al. 1996), ISA (Nylund et al. 1993, Rolland and Nylund 1998), Aeromonas salmonicida (Nese and Enger 1993), and platyhelminthes (Minchin and Jackson 1993),

Nylund, A., C. Wallace, and T. Hovland. 1993. The possible role of Lepeophtheirus salmonis Kröyer in the transmission of infectious salmon anemia. In: Pathogens of wild and farmed fish: sea lice, ed. G. A. Boxshall and D. Defaye, 367-373. New York: Ellis Horwood Ltd.

Rolland, J. B. & Nylund, A. 1998a. Infectiousness of organic materials originating in ISA-infected fish and transmission via salmon lice Lepeophtheirus salmonis. Bull. Eur. Assoc. Fish Path. 18 5 : 173-180.

(p. 5) at:
http://www.puresalmon.org/pdfs/ISA-backgrounder.pdf

"Sea Lice as a Vector for the ISA Virus
Research also points to sea lice as a vector for the ISA virus from infected to susceptible fish. 10 11 12 The USDA’s “ISA Program Standards” also state that “sea lice of the species Caligulus elongatus and Lepeophterius salmonis may also play an important as vectors that can enhance contagion during epidemics (Nyland et. al. 1994) role.”

(P.1) OF report FROM of the U.S. Department of Agriculture's (USDA) Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) at:
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/lpa/pubs/tnisa.pdf
"Sea lice appears to enhance transmission of the ISA virus from infected to susceptible fish".
 
Very good guys. Yes sea lice could be a vector and so could little bits of wood.

Who cares? If there is a problem the last fish that need to worry about it are wild fish- because they are the source of the infection.

The farm fish on the other hand will be killed off if they cant be treated.


I'll say it again. Hoof and mouth disease is not a threat to wild ungulates. We dont kill all the cattle to protect the wild because they are not threatened and they are not grown at high density. Same goes for fish. On farms we cull the herd before they get sick. We actually cull when only a tiny percent are infected.

Infection, transmission does not equal disease.

I know you want this idea that diseases are transmitted from farmed to wild to be true but the number one threat to wild salmon is humans that kill them for fun, profit and ceremony. The second threat is predators, the third is... etc You know all this.

We are not going to stop farming anything from carrots to cows to salmon because of disease. Farming is the solution to killing off our wild stocks. Wild stocks infect farm stocks, farm stocks do not amplify because they are managed. Because they are managed and because the original infection comes from the wild, the wild are not threatened. This is Biology 101, this is why we farm. Unfortunately we usually wait forthe wild stocks to be killed off before we begrudgingly learn to farm e.g Atlantic Cod. We should have started farming them 30 years ago.
 
Originally posted by handee

Very good guys. Yes sea lice could be a vector and so could little bits of wood.

Who cares? If there is a problem the last fish that need to worry about it are wild fish- because they are the source of the infection.

The farm fish on the other hand will be killed off if they cant be treated.


I'll say it again. Hoof and mouth disease is not a threat to wild ungulates. We dont kill all the cattle to protect the wild because they are not threatened and they are not grown at high density. Same goes for fish. On farms we cull the herd before they get sick. We actually cull when only a tiny percent are infected.

Infection, transmission does not equal disease.

I know you want this idea that diseases are transmitted from farmed to wild to be true but the number one threat to wild salmon is humans that kill them for fun, profit and ceremony. The second threat is predators, the third is... etc You know all this.

We are not going to stop farming anything from carrots to cows to salmon because of disease. Farming is the solution to killing off our wild stocks. Wild stocks infect farm stocks, farm stocks do not amplify because they are managed. Because they are managed and because the original infection comes from the wild, the wild are not threatened. This is Biology 101, this is why we farm. Unfortunately we usually wait forthe wild stocks to be killed off before we begrudgingly learn to farm e.g Atlantic Cod. We should have started farming them 30 years ago.




So, let me see if I understand your argument here. You say we should embrace fish farming to protect wild salmon populations, even though there IS at least SOME evidence that fish farms ARE causing harm to those same populations?? I would think faced with these circumstances, you would be advocating expanding fish farming to enclosed land based operations ONLY. After all, if you are truly concerned with wild salmon populations, then why would you advocate a method of farming ( open net pens ) that could even pose a possible threat to wild stocks?? Why even take a chance?? Why not err on the side of caution & give the wild fish every bit of help we could?? Why is it so hard to take all fish farming operations off the water & put them on land?? Please don't tell me it is just because of the cost. If making the farming industry 100% safe isn't cost effective, then maybe it just isn't worthwhile. At what point does profit finally not become more important than the risk involved?? Is it really worth it to roll the dice with open net pen farming in the hopes that it isn't effecting the wild stocks??
Click to expand...
 
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