Agentaqua, Sockeyefry & Handee
- Thread starter Time
- Start date
S
sockeyefry
Guest
Time,
Is this a requirement of all posters?
Is this a requirement of all posters?
No it is not ; but if Time's message is read right he is asking in a polite and respectful manner for your curriculum vitaes, why be so defensive ?
If you have a background in aquaculture and other biological related fields it would lend far more weight to your opinions.
AL
If you have a background in aquaculture and other biological related fields it would lend far more weight to your opinions.
AL
B
blueorca
Guest
Very good question.
Maybe they are all one in the same person...mmmmmmm....
Maybe they are all one in the same person...mmmmmmm....
G
gimp
Guest
I am a manager for a Title & Escrow Company in the states. My knowledge comes from what I have read and seen first hand as a fisherman in the broughton. My family has been fishing and recreating in that area for 24 of so years now. I did attend Sheldon Jackson and started to attend the Aquaculture program but left after a year. I am no expert. I do try to post the links to my fact finding missions. I am not mentioned above but but have posted many times as I am passionate about this issue. hopefully this will help the others to post
Rum Buddies
Well-Known Member
I think it should be a requirement for them to continue, if they are going to be allowed to use this forum as a political platform we should at least know who they are.
Whole in the Water
Well-Known Member
Excellent request Time. I wonder if any of these three in question have the fortitude to follow through with your request???
I am no fan of fish farms - I don't trust their science nor their agents - I think fish farms are negatively impacting fish and fear they may be the straw (or one of the straws) that break the camel's back, in terms of wild salmon sustainability on the Pacific coast.
Having said that however I also don't want to see a collapse of open forum principles either. If anonimity and free speech are by-words of this forum then lets stick to those principles. A forum that doesn't offer diverse views or views of only those people we agree with or who have "expert" credentials, isn't much of a forum. If we make rules they should apply to all</u>.
Better than making rules tho, is that we as users of this forum are treated like the intelligent adults that we are...we can make up our own minds as to who to beleive without help...thanks!
Having said that however I also don't want to see a collapse of open forum principles either. If anonimity and free speech are by-words of this forum then lets stick to those principles. A forum that doesn't offer diverse views or views of only those people we agree with or who have "expert" credentials, isn't much of a forum. If we make rules they should apply to all</u>.
Better than making rules tho, is that we as users of this forum are treated like the intelligent adults that we are...we can make up our own minds as to who to beleive without help...thanks!
As much as I'd like to find-out who sockeyefry really is (dum-dum-da-dahh!!!) - I also respect his and everyone else's privacy on this forum.
Sometimes that information can also detract from the message. It then becomes a battle of experts - and a "miss congeniality" contest verses a debate on the facts.
I've seen enough of that in the media on this fishfarm topic for many a year. I'm tired of it. It's a stalling and bluffing tactic. The facts should stand for themselves - and they do when you look at the peer-reviewed science.
That's why I've been countering argument with logic and science whenever I can get it. Not all the science is finished, because it takes time to understand such a dynamic place like the ocean.
But what we know so far screams to me that we should be precautionary and most of all - HUMBLE.
You only get to have hindsight after it's happened. We need to develop our sense of stewardship and action to have the foresight to be responsible stewards of our spaceship.
I don't think we should be shooting-off to Mars until we understand and learn to look after our own planet, first.
That's what drives me to respond to sockeyefry, Handee and Barbender - that need to get that understanding and stewardship happening. It's long overdue.
Believe-it-or-not - I am not a member or employee of any eNGO. I simply care too much to let a tragedy happen on my watch. I think others on this forum feel the same way, too.
Sometimes that information can also detract from the message. It then becomes a battle of experts - and a "miss congeniality" contest verses a debate on the facts.
I've seen enough of that in the media on this fishfarm topic for many a year. I'm tired of it. It's a stalling and bluffing tactic. The facts should stand for themselves - and they do when you look at the peer-reviewed science.
That's why I've been countering argument with logic and science whenever I can get it. Not all the science is finished, because it takes time to understand such a dynamic place like the ocean.
But what we know so far screams to me that we should be precautionary and most of all - HUMBLE.
You only get to have hindsight after it's happened. We need to develop our sense of stewardship and action to have the foresight to be responsible stewards of our spaceship.
I don't think we should be shooting-off to Mars until we understand and learn to look after our own planet, first.
That's what drives me to respond to sockeyefry, Handee and Barbender - that need to get that understanding and stewardship happening. It's long overdue.
Believe-it-or-not - I am not a member or employee of any eNGO. I simply care too much to let a tragedy happen on my watch. I think others on this forum feel the same way, too.
S
sockeyefry
Guest
Agent,
I agree with you that the science is far from complete.
Unfortunately surrounding the science is the problem of agendas which have created an environment of mistrust. The farmers do not see themselves doing wrong. Yes they do agree that there is an impact, but the troubles with wild salmon are not the result of a few fish farms.
I fail however to understand whats makes you so noble to dsagree with me, but when I disagree with you and put forth a contrary view I am ridiculed and called a company shill, clown, etc...?
I agree with you that the science is far from complete.
Unfortunately surrounding the science is the problem of agendas which have created an environment of mistrust. The farmers do not see themselves doing wrong. Yes they do agree that there is an impact, but the troubles with wild salmon are not the result of a few fish farms.
I fail however to understand whats makes you so noble to dsagree with me, but when I disagree with you and put forth a contrary view I am ridiculed and called a company shill, clown, etc...?
Time
Well-Known Member
Well, it's developed into name calling already.
Point of my original request (for c.v.'s) was to get a bit of background for establishing the credibility of the posters. In no way was it a request for names and addresses, but to get a better idea of where they (and hence, their biases) were coming from. Usually I can get a rough handle on a member just by reading their postings, but some members are so prolific, and one topic oriented, that they are impossible to get a read on.
Unfortunately, on the net with the anonomity provided, information and misinformation carries equal weight. Infiltration and dissemination is not a new tactic. Thus the source must be checked as far as possible, particularly when the poster 'postures' expert pretensions.
Terry/Little Hawk/ of the Wild Salmon Alliance provided a role model by prefacing his movement by the simple explanation that he was a dismayed fisherman with a trades (carpentry, I believe) background. No pretensions, just honest.
Gimp, thank you for your posting and establishing your qualifications and area of interest. Your passion shows in your postings.
That said, given I asked for others backgrounds, and for anybody who cares, I:
Trades: Plumber/Gas Fitter
22 years as Building Official/Inspector
BA, SFU, 1977
Now retired, and tired of ********.
Point of my original request (for c.v.'s) was to get a bit of background for establishing the credibility of the posters. In no way was it a request for names and addresses, but to get a better idea of where they (and hence, their biases) were coming from. Usually I can get a rough handle on a member just by reading their postings, but some members are so prolific, and one topic oriented, that they are impossible to get a read on.
Unfortunately, on the net with the anonomity provided, information and misinformation carries equal weight. Infiltration and dissemination is not a new tactic. Thus the source must be checked as far as possible, particularly when the poster 'postures' expert pretensions.
Terry/Little Hawk/ of the Wild Salmon Alliance provided a role model by prefacing his movement by the simple explanation that he was a dismayed fisherman with a trades (carpentry, I believe) background. No pretensions, just honest.
Gimp, thank you for your posting and establishing your qualifications and area of interest. Your passion shows in your postings.
That said, given I asked for others backgrounds, and for anybody who cares, I:
Trades: Plumber/Gas Fitter
22 years as Building Official/Inspector
BA, SFU, 1977
Now retired, and tired of ********.
S
sockeyefry
Guest
Tell ya what Time, if it really matters to you, and the rest:
Here's my CV:
Degree in Aquaculture & Fisheries Biology
Been farming fish for the last 20 odd years. By fish I mean: Trout (3 species) Salmon (4 species), eels, Striped Bass, mussels, scallops, Arctic Char.
Farmed fish on both Canadian Coasts, and in Alaska.
Farmed fish using net pens in both tidal waters and Lakes, used the Future sea system in 2 different locations, managed a pumped ashore salmon farm, and managed a few freshwater hatcheries, both flow through and Recirc.
I am currently managing a freshwater hatchery
I am not a paid shill, nor a talking head for the farm lobby. I am just a guy who has grown alot of fish in different locations and have yet to see the farms cause the damage that they have been accused of.
I do not know who Handee or Barbender are.
I post here because I am trying to give a balance to the anti farm rhetoric, which I see as being agenda driven, and not based on much fact.
I don't think that I deserve the name calling etc. reception which I have received on this site.
Now Agent.....
Here's my CV:
Degree in Aquaculture & Fisheries Biology
Been farming fish for the last 20 odd years. By fish I mean: Trout (3 species) Salmon (4 species), eels, Striped Bass, mussels, scallops, Arctic Char.
Farmed fish on both Canadian Coasts, and in Alaska.
Farmed fish using net pens in both tidal waters and Lakes, used the Future sea system in 2 different locations, managed a pumped ashore salmon farm, and managed a few freshwater hatcheries, both flow through and Recirc.
I am currently managing a freshwater hatchery
I am not a paid shill, nor a talking head for the farm lobby. I am just a guy who has grown alot of fish in different locations and have yet to see the farms cause the damage that they have been accused of.
I do not know who Handee or Barbender are.
I post here because I am trying to give a balance to the anti farm rhetoric, which I see as being agenda driven, and not based on much fact.
I don't think that I deserve the name calling etc. reception which I have received on this site.
Now Agent.....
S
sockeyefry
Guest
Tell ya what Time, if it really matters to you, and the rest:
Here's my CV:
Degree in Aquaculture & Fisheries Biology
Been farming fish for the last 20 odd years. By fish I mean: Trout (3 species) Salmon (4 species), eels, Striped Bass, mussels, scallops, Arctic Char.
Farmed fish on both Canadian Coasts, and in Alaska.
Farmed fish using net pens in both tidal waters and Lakes, used the Future sea system in 2 different locations, managed a pumped ashore salmon farm, and managed a few freshwater hatcheries, both flow through and Recirc.
I am currently managing a freshwater hatchery
I am not a paid shill, nor a talking head for the farm lobby. I am just a guy who has grown alot of fish in different locations and have yet to see the farms cause the damage that they have been accused of.
I do not know who Handee or Barbender are.
I post here because I am trying to give a balance to the anti farm rhetoric, which I see as being agenda driven, and not based on much fact.
I don't think that I deserve the name calling etc. reception which I have received on this site.
Now Agent.....
Here's my CV:
Degree in Aquaculture & Fisheries Biology
Been farming fish for the last 20 odd years. By fish I mean: Trout (3 species) Salmon (4 species), eels, Striped Bass, mussels, scallops, Arctic Char.
Farmed fish on both Canadian Coasts, and in Alaska.
Farmed fish using net pens in both tidal waters and Lakes, used the Future sea system in 2 different locations, managed a pumped ashore salmon farm, and managed a few freshwater hatcheries, both flow through and Recirc.
I am currently managing a freshwater hatchery
I am not a paid shill, nor a talking head for the farm lobby. I am just a guy who has grown alot of fish in different locations and have yet to see the farms cause the damage that they have been accused of.
I do not know who Handee or Barbender are.
I post here because I am trying to give a balance to the anti farm rhetoric, which I see as being agenda driven, and not based on much fact.
I don't think that I deserve the name calling etc. reception which I have received on this site.
Now Agent.....
Thank you sockeyefry , I have personally never name called anyone on this forum as I was raised in a different generation where manners and respect to differing views was granted regardless if we agreed with them or not , in another persons thought process there is always a germ of truth or something to be learned.
My background is :
High School graduate 1961
Canadian Army Regular forces , airborne signals technician attached to RDF UN
Civilian life 38 years papermaker
Local Union President 15 years ,
Attended CLC Winter Schools for 4 years studying Negotiations , Labour Law , Strategic Bargaining , Conflict resolution , Communications and motivation , Parliamentary procedure etc.
Specialized in Industry bargaining and negotiations.
5 Main Wage sessions for the P&P Industry in BC
2years Western Canada Strategic Bargaining Committee CEP
Retired 2005
Vice-Chairman North American Indigeneous Games 2008 Cowichan
Senator Region 1 Metis Nation BC
Chairman MNBC Senate.
Regards
AL
My background is :
High School graduate 1961
Canadian Army Regular forces , airborne signals technician attached to RDF UN
Civilian life 38 years papermaker
Local Union President 15 years ,
Attended CLC Winter Schools for 4 years studying Negotiations , Labour Law , Strategic Bargaining , Conflict resolution , Communications and motivation , Parliamentary procedure etc.
Specialized in Industry bargaining and negotiations.
5 Main Wage sessions for the P&P Industry in BC
2years Western Canada Strategic Bargaining Committee CEP
Retired 2005
Vice-Chairman North American Indigeneous Games 2008 Cowichan
Senator Region 1 Metis Nation BC
Chairman MNBC Senate.
Regards
AL
Thank you sockeyefry , I have personally never name called anyone on this forum as I was raised in a different generation where manners and respect to differing views was granted regardless if we agreed with them or not , in another persons thought process there is always a germ of truth or something to be learned.
My background is :
High School graduate 1961
Canadian Army Regular forces , airborne signals technician attached to RDF UN
Civilian life 38 years papermaker
Local Union President 15 years ,
Attended CLC Winter Schools for 4 years studying Negotiations , Labour Law , Strategic Bargaining , Conflict resolution , Communications and motivation , Parliamentary procedure etc.
Specialized in Industry bargaining and negotiations.
5 Main Wage sessions for the P&P Industry in BC
2years Western Canada Strategic Bargaining Committee CEP
Retired 2005
Vice-Chairman North American Indigeneous Games 2008 Cowichan
Senator Region 1 Metis Nation BC
Chairman MNBC Senate.
Regards
AL
My background is :
High School graduate 1961
Canadian Army Regular forces , airborne signals technician attached to RDF UN
Civilian life 38 years papermaker
Local Union President 15 years ,
Attended CLC Winter Schools for 4 years studying Negotiations , Labour Law , Strategic Bargaining , Conflict resolution , Communications and motivation , Parliamentary procedure etc.
Specialized in Industry bargaining and negotiations.
5 Main Wage sessions for the P&P Industry in BC
2years Western Canada Strategic Bargaining Committee CEP
Retired 2005
Vice-Chairman North American Indigeneous Games 2008 Cowichan
Senator Region 1 Metis Nation BC
Chairman MNBC Senate.
Regards
AL
H
handee
Guest
This idea of posting CV's is ignorant and demeaning.
Even if iam a paid shill for fish farming who cares? By the way, what is a paid shill? I dont care if anyone on this site is a paid shill. This is fact against fact not a CV competition.
Lets say that I reveal that i am an ex fish farmer biologist who is now a landscaper. how does that help decide the argument? it doesnt. from that point on I'll be called a lying ex fish farmer biologist who is now a landscaper. Lets say I run a fish farm, again, who cares?
Heck, many people here believe morton (US billionaire with a arts degree in whale music), Krkosek (math student) and Volpe(granted this guy has fishery experience, but has turned activist) and have dismissed out of hand two dozen fishery experts with decades of experience and no reason to lie. Why state my CV when you won't even consider the evidence presented by a recipient of the order of Canada?
If I show you peer reviewed science that says pink salmon returns are not going down then its not me who needs to be judged, its the evidence. then you tell me that it doesnt count because of fish ladders. then i point out that that is irrelevant as stated in a peer reviewed study because the ladders do not effect return numbers just where in the river the fish spawn. then you call me a name. Iam actually interested in the rebuttal not who you are or what you call me.
I have challenged the argument that says that it is a fact that salmon farms impact wild salmon by pointing out independent peer reviewed science that supports the opposite view.
I have pointed out that american bilionaire Alexandra Morton is not an expert and that some of her stuff that was peer reviewed, she herself has agreed is wrong. For example her first study (if you believe she wrote it), the one that got things going about sea lice is a joke. she chased some pinks with dip nets obviously leading to bias (because she could only catch the fish with the lice) and then compared it to a farm free study area where they used seine nets, voila the farm free area had more lice than another. she now swears up and down that that was stupid and she is not doing it anymore. she does not however throw out her conclusions based on that junky science. she pounds the pulpit about those and dares us not to BELIEVE.
I have provided evidence that the pocket of science done in BC that seems to suggest that sea lice is a threat against wild salmon is paid for by the alaska seafood marketting institute to increase the market share of alsaka farmed salmon being marketted as "wild". the evidence i supplied was direct quotes from the activist websites and the websites of the people providing the funding.I have pointed out where the funders are acknowledged on morton and Krkosek's latest paper. so far the only rebuttal I have seen is calling me a shill and a liar.
Knowing the CV of agentaqua, sockeyefry or gimp helps me in no way. iam not about BELIEVING people because of who they are. iam about looking at EVIDENCE.
No evidence, peer reviewed computer model studies aside, has been put forward to support the argument that BC fish farms impact wild stocks. The return data of the rivers in and away from the Broughton do not support this theory. the hypothesis is certainly provocative. I am sorry Iam not going to BELIEVE Morton, just because her Mommy can afford to make youTube videos of her that pull heartstrings. Yes she can repeat it over and over and to layman it sounds very plausible. But iam more interested in evidence.
For example if the salmon farms impact the wild fish ALL the Alaska paid activists have to do is show that the number of wild salmon is going down and not up. and I dont mean by only counting the rivers where the returns are lower and hoping no one asks about the other ones. the least they could do is show that sea lice numbers are going up, but that isnt happening either. lice loads on farm salmon remain virtually zero and lice loads on wild salmon fluctuate as per usual.
So if we do not have the pink returns in the Broughton going down or behaving differently than they always have and the way they do in other jurisdictions, and if even Morton can't make sea lice kill pacifics in fish tanks and nor can a team of DFO scientists lead by Simon jones (all this is published on the pacific salmon forum website, please look before calling me a liar), then why do we BELIEVE a handful of activists and disbelieve the peer reviewed, published science of our DFO experts? does DFO have to make snappy little youtube videos too?
This should be good news to the people of BC. We can eat farm salmon, relieve pressure on the wild and, if we stop killing them, they may come back in larger numbers one day- provided we actually stop doing the other things that kill them such as destroying their spawning beds.
Now Iam not sure how the above words can be seen as vitriolic or mean spirited, other than because Iam not a true believer in the Prophet Morton.
Besides, we just had some more evidnce presented last week: based on this year's DFO survey study (which includes Prophet Morton data) sea lice numbers are down. Even when they were up it had no effect on salmon retruns, but the important bit here is that Krkosek and Morton's computer models (the last two peer reviewed studies by the activists have been based on computer modelling where they tell a computer all their assumptions then see what it says) all predicted the numbers would be spiralling upwards and thus impacting wild salmon. wrong again (and again and again).
now instead of wondering about my CV, just submit a tiny scrap of evidence that shows farming salmon in netpens kills more (or any) wild salmon than killing wild salmon commercially or for sport? please, im begging you to stay on topic here.
what kills more wild salmon? sportsfishing, commercial fishing or sea lions? this is a genuine question, does anyone know?
Even if iam a paid shill for fish farming who cares? By the way, what is a paid shill? I dont care if anyone on this site is a paid shill. This is fact against fact not a CV competition.
Lets say that I reveal that i am an ex fish farmer biologist who is now a landscaper. how does that help decide the argument? it doesnt. from that point on I'll be called a lying ex fish farmer biologist who is now a landscaper. Lets say I run a fish farm, again, who cares?
Heck, many people here believe morton (US billionaire with a arts degree in whale music), Krkosek (math student) and Volpe(granted this guy has fishery experience, but has turned activist) and have dismissed out of hand two dozen fishery experts with decades of experience and no reason to lie. Why state my CV when you won't even consider the evidence presented by a recipient of the order of Canada?
If I show you peer reviewed science that says pink salmon returns are not going down then its not me who needs to be judged, its the evidence. then you tell me that it doesnt count because of fish ladders. then i point out that that is irrelevant as stated in a peer reviewed study because the ladders do not effect return numbers just where in the river the fish spawn. then you call me a name. Iam actually interested in the rebuttal not who you are or what you call me.
I have challenged the argument that says that it is a fact that salmon farms impact wild salmon by pointing out independent peer reviewed science that supports the opposite view.
I have pointed out that american bilionaire Alexandra Morton is not an expert and that some of her stuff that was peer reviewed, she herself has agreed is wrong. For example her first study (if you believe she wrote it), the one that got things going about sea lice is a joke. she chased some pinks with dip nets obviously leading to bias (because she could only catch the fish with the lice) and then compared it to a farm free study area where they used seine nets, voila the farm free area had more lice than another. she now swears up and down that that was stupid and she is not doing it anymore. she does not however throw out her conclusions based on that junky science. she pounds the pulpit about those and dares us not to BELIEVE.
I have provided evidence that the pocket of science done in BC that seems to suggest that sea lice is a threat against wild salmon is paid for by the alaska seafood marketting institute to increase the market share of alsaka farmed salmon being marketted as "wild". the evidence i supplied was direct quotes from the activist websites and the websites of the people providing the funding.I have pointed out where the funders are acknowledged on morton and Krkosek's latest paper. so far the only rebuttal I have seen is calling me a shill and a liar.
Knowing the CV of agentaqua, sockeyefry or gimp helps me in no way. iam not about BELIEVING people because of who they are. iam about looking at EVIDENCE.
No evidence, peer reviewed computer model studies aside, has been put forward to support the argument that BC fish farms impact wild stocks. The return data of the rivers in and away from the Broughton do not support this theory. the hypothesis is certainly provocative. I am sorry Iam not going to BELIEVE Morton, just because her Mommy can afford to make youTube videos of her that pull heartstrings. Yes she can repeat it over and over and to layman it sounds very plausible. But iam more interested in evidence.
For example if the salmon farms impact the wild fish ALL the Alaska paid activists have to do is show that the number of wild salmon is going down and not up. and I dont mean by only counting the rivers where the returns are lower and hoping no one asks about the other ones. the least they could do is show that sea lice numbers are going up, but that isnt happening either. lice loads on farm salmon remain virtually zero and lice loads on wild salmon fluctuate as per usual.
So if we do not have the pink returns in the Broughton going down or behaving differently than they always have and the way they do in other jurisdictions, and if even Morton can't make sea lice kill pacifics in fish tanks and nor can a team of DFO scientists lead by Simon jones (all this is published on the pacific salmon forum website, please look before calling me a liar), then why do we BELIEVE a handful of activists and disbelieve the peer reviewed, published science of our DFO experts? does DFO have to make snappy little youtube videos too?
This should be good news to the people of BC. We can eat farm salmon, relieve pressure on the wild and, if we stop killing them, they may come back in larger numbers one day- provided we actually stop doing the other things that kill them such as destroying their spawning beds.
Now Iam not sure how the above words can be seen as vitriolic or mean spirited, other than because Iam not a true believer in the Prophet Morton.
Besides, we just had some more evidnce presented last week: based on this year's DFO survey study (which includes Prophet Morton data) sea lice numbers are down. Even when they were up it had no effect on salmon retruns, but the important bit here is that Krkosek and Morton's computer models (the last two peer reviewed studies by the activists have been based on computer modelling where they tell a computer all their assumptions then see what it says) all predicted the numbers would be spiralling upwards and thus impacting wild salmon. wrong again (and again and again).
now instead of wondering about my CV, just submit a tiny scrap of evidence that shows farming salmon in netpens kills more (or any) wild salmon than killing wild salmon commercially or for sport? please, im begging you to stay on topic here.
what kills more wild salmon? sportsfishing, commercial fishing or sea lions? this is a genuine question, does anyone know?
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